| ID: | 2471 |
| From: | ge...@igor2.repo.hu |
| Date: | Wed, 21 Nov 2018 04:34:33 +0100 (CET) |
| Subject: | Re: [pcb-rnd] Oshpark and slots - .cnc files merged? |
| in-reply-to: | 2470 from Anthony Tuttle <ke...@gmail.com> |
| replies: | 2472 from Anthony Tuttle <ke...@gmail.com> |
This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-765514570-1542771273=:21900 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Anthony, On Tue, 20 Nov 2018, Anthony Tuttle wrote: >I made a slot using the new slot layers. 2 interesting things happened. >The first one is that Oshpark doesn't support the method pcb-rnd uses to >call out slots. That doesn't necessarily mean it won't work, it just seems >to mean Oshpark doesn't know if all their factories are on the same page >about that specific form of slot callout. I notice Oshpark supports G85 >slots, and I see G85 mentioned in the preferences for the Gerber exporter. >Is this an option to change the slot callout method? Oshpark slot support: > >https://docs.oshpark.com/submitting-orders/slots/ Thanks, I see they have upgraded their doc and now they write file format details so we can see better. Background: there are two totally different sets of files you send to a fab in the classic workflow: excellon for drills+slots and gerbers for copper+mask+paste+outline. Classic gerbers don't capture anything about holes, excellon doesn't know anything about copper. Plus there's literally nothing that specifies what each file really is for - they look at the file names and try to guess. Yes, this is still how majority of the PCBs are made in the 21st century.^1 Note: the process was never 100% automated. The gerber and excellon files you send don't feed machines. Most fabs run some software on a PC where they load your files, manually fix things up (knowing their own machines and processes) and re-export them in whatever format their machines need. That's how they normally figure what you meant by file names. To your specific questions... I've attached a minimal slot example so you can try how the files end up and can try what oshpark says for each combo, without noise. Best if they ahve some preview where you can see their render. 1. First, the simplest: "callout". I have no idea what they mean by callout and we never managed to figure it. I could not find this term in any of the file format specs (gerber or excellon). My best guess is that it may be some GUI thin in eagle or some other proprietary CAD and when they wrote that section of the doc they thought it was widely adopted standard. So we can't do anything with callouts until someone explains what they really are, on file format level. 2. G85: the old/obsolete way of doing it. As you figured, we have optional support for that. This is the only thing gerbv can display at the moment, and even only git version of gerbv can display it. The G85 command in excellon says: "drill a lot of overlapping small holes to get the slot". What their doc says: X<numbers>Y<numbers>G85X<numbers>Y<numbers> What our file has: X000625Y000750G85X001375Y000750 To me it looks like perfectly matching their spec (and excellon spec too). If they can't read it, that suggest they have a bug in their code, please contact them (maybe with the minimal exports from the mnimal example I attached). 3. M15 This is the default, more modern approach: we literally tell the CNC to spin up the tool, move it down through the board and route the slot on a linear path. G00 is "move to starting point, not milling", M15 is the "start spinning/move down/start routing", G01 is the linear interpolation to the endpoint and then we have an M command to take out the tool and stop spinning. Their spec says: G00X<numbers>Y<numbers> M15 G01X<numbers>Y<numbers>> M16 What we have: G00 X000625Y000750 M15 G01X001375Y000750 M17 The only difference is that we use M17 to stop, while they mention M16. The difference between them is neglible^2: M16 = Retract With Clamping M17 = Retract Without Clamping So either their importer is too limited and doesn't understand M17, or like with G85 their parser does not fully meet their spec. You have access to their checker so it is easy to test: just modify M17 to M16 in the excellon file (preferrably on the output of the minimal example attached), and see if they can now load it. >The 2nd interesting thing is that Oshpark tells me: > > * Your project contains 2 drill files, we've merged them. > ["main.plated-drill.cnc", "main.unplated-drill.cnc"] > >main.unplated-drill.cnc contains a single line: M30 M30 is end program. That means an empty drill files, which means you don't have unplated drills. > >Is it okay to merge these files or do they need to be separate to tell the >fab what is and is not plated? In your specific case, if you really don't have unplated drills, it is okay. More generally it is not. As I wrote in the intro, excellon doesn't know about copper and old gerber doesn't know about drill. Which means nobody can specify plated hols, since that's both drill and copper. The workaround is the same hack that is done with the gerber files: file naming. EDA software just export different files for plated and unplated excellons and the fab figures. If osh merges them, you will probably get back all holes plated. This may ruin some boards in various ways, but for real small batches where you can even manually re-drill the hole it probably not fatal. HTH, Igor2 footnotes: ^1 gerber's maintainer, Ucamco, made some efforts to upgrade the format and pushes very hard to get the new format adopted. The new format would describe all aspects, including holes, with a single gerber format. However, the industry is slow to move, and their copyright/licensing term for the specification is so nice that for example I can't copy their pdf and put it in our svn. Guess how popular this will be among free software projects.... Because of this I decided not to even consider dealing with their new format until we see multiple fabs ouyr users use explicitly demanding the new format. ^2 as most of the PCB fabbing standards, the official excellon format spec is not freely redistributable either. There are extracts and illegal copies floating on the web, and we tend to trust them. 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Reply subtree:
2471 Re: [pcb-rnd] Oshpark and slots - .cnc files merged? from ge...@igor2.repo.hu
2472 Re: [pcb-rnd] Oshpark and slots - .cnc files merged? from Anthony Tuttle <ke...@gmail.com>
2473 Re: [pcb-rnd] Oshpark and slots - .cnc files merged? from ge...@igor2.repo.hu